Deviate With Rolf Potts

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00). Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored practice of Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David M

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt’s mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt’s experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00). Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/. Notable Links: East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book) East of Eden excerpt The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book) Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book) Cannery Row excerpt Gary House (traveler) The World Befor

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00). Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of t

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t ma

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00). Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Ange

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds o

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier. Travel can

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) i

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four y

“Billionaires can't take a week off? What's the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what "wealth" is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and "efficiency" is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the "beginner's mind," and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and "getting lost" on the road, and how this figured into Rolf's writing classes (1:17:00); notions of "success," and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one's way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf's recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's summer writing classes)

“Sometimes it's good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya)

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.”  –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom's career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn't air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, "taxi drivers and bartenders" layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the "wisdom of place" (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodi

“Not everyone who's lucky is talented and not everyone who's talented is lucky.”  –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom's lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction "characters" (16:00); Tom "failures" as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf’s Paris

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, "taxi drivers and bartenders" layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the "wisdom of place" (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you're living in 'organic time' and you're not used to it.”  –Rolf Potts In this "vagabonding audio companion" episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar's Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf's experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf's early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00). The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.”  –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you're not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers' tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists' expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond's Way, and the concept of "walking until your day becomes interesting" (30:00). Discuss