Choiceology With Dan Heath

In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the often-misunderstood and surprisingly common Dunning-Kruger effect with an interview featuring one of the researchers who first identified it, David Dunning.But we start with the story of Cecilia Jimenez, the humble Spanish grandmother and amateur landscape painter who took it upon herself to restore a fresco in her local church. The results made international headlines—and briefly made Ceclia Jimenez a household name—for all the wrong reasons.Andrew Flack has a lot of compassion for Cecilia. He met with her several times in the process of writing an opera with composer Paul Fowler called Behold the Man about Ceclia’s ill-fated but ultimately beneficial project. Next, David Dunning explains how—contrary to popular belief—we are all at the mercy of the Dunning-Kruger effect from time to time, and that we should be more humble in recognizing what we don’t know about what we don’t know.David Dunning is the Ann and Charles R. Walgreen, Jr., Professor

Pursuing a goal alone is convenient. Whether you're training for a marathon or aiming to read 20 books this year, it's convenient to move at your own pace and schedule. But having a gym buddy or a book club pal can make a bigger difference to your goal completion than you think. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the benefits of tandem goal pursuit in the context of training for a new Olympic sport: kite foiling. Max Maeder is a 17-year-old kite foiling athlete and many-time world champion of the sport. Max is also a recent Olympic bronze medalist, having just represented Singapore at the 2024 Paris Games and winning the country's lone medal. To get to this point, Max has been working with the same training partner since 2021. And in this solo sport, working with a partner has made all the difference. Next, Katy speaks with Rachel Gershon about their research on tandem goal pursuit and the many benefits of working toward goals with a partner. You can learn more in their working paper

When you're facing loss—say, in a board game or during a sporting event or with a declining stock—it can be difficult to remember your true tolerance for risk. You're likely to seek risk more than you normally would.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a tendency to seek risk in the face of losses when those losses aren't yet finalized, but how chalking up those losses and moving on can actually help you recalibrate your appetite for risk.During the American Revolutionary War, George Washington and his generals often adopted a strategy of retreating, or accepting losses on the battlefield, in order to regroup and live to fight another day. Their strategy was often successful against the British, who burned through men and equipment as they doubled down in their desire to win individual battles at the expense of their goal of regaining control of the American colonies.Mary Stockwell is a historian, writer, and former history professor at Lourdes University in Ohio. Her work is focused o

Over the years, Choiceology has offered a lot of advice for making better decisions. In this special episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we bring you the story of a video game that is surprisingly effective at reducing decision errors, and you'll hear about a practical checklist for improving choices in many different contexts.Solving fictitious mysteries might sound like fun and games, but the video game MISSING: The Pursuit of Terry Hughes was designed with a serious purpose in mind: to help intelligence analysts avoid decision-making traps. In 2015, James Korris and Carey Morewedge worked together to design a video game for the intelligence agency IARPA, the Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity, and measured the biases exhibited before and after playing the series of 90-minute games. The results were remarkable and extremely durable.James Korris is president and CEO of Creative Technologies Inc. in Los Angeles, and is a pioneer in immersive game-based simulation for military learning. You

"Don't judge a book by its cover" is an old adage for a good reason. Elegant book cover designs can create a positive impression and make you more likely to judge the writing quality more positively. But these traits—cover art and writing—are separate and distinct features of books. So why do we allow the judgment of one trait to spill over to another unrelated trait? In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a tendency to allow our judgments of one trait of a person (or product or company) to overly influence our judgments of another, unrelated trait of that same person or product or company. The Traitors is a popular reality TV show, where contestants are assigned either the role of a "Faithful" or "Traitor." Those selected as Traitors eliminate Faithfuls each night and try to keep their identity a secret so the Faithfuls don't vote to eliminate them. By the end of the game, over $100,000 is up for grabs for those left standing. But how can the Faithfuls sniff out the Traitors and decide

Are rules made to be followed—or meant to be broken? Often, the answer will depend on culture and the context in which people make decisions. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how carefully people in different contexts follow social norms, rules, and procedures. We'll also see how strict and relaxed cultures affect the quality of our decisions—and how to find the sweet spot depending on your goals.Professional kitchens have historically been challenging work environments: high standards, long hours with low pay, and a strong hierarchy of cooks in the kitchen. "Yes, chef" was the only appropriate reply to higher-ranked chefs when Simon Rogan came through the ranks during the 1980s and '90s—a time when kitchen culture was tight and uncompromising. Today, Simon is working hard to change that culture across his restaurant group. Simon Rogan is a chef and restaurateur in the U.K. whose flagship restaurant, L'Enclume, has three Michelin stars and also holds a Michelin Green Star for its s

In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how framing a decision based on what you stand to lose versus what you stand to gain affects your tolerance of risk.Luis Green was a contestant on the popular TV game show Deal or No Deal. The game is largely one of chance, but there are moments during play where the contestant has an option to accept a cash offer to quit. At one point in the game, Luis was offered $333,000 to simply walk away. A guaranteed win! It seems like an obvious choice. But as you’ll hear from the story, there are other factors that influenced his decision.Katy illustrates these factors with a version of a famous experiment. Volunteers are presented with two differently worded but mathematically identical scenarios. A simple shift from framing the scenario as a potential gain to one of potential loss results in starkly different choices from the volunteers.Next, Katy speaks with special guest Daniel Kahneman about the underlying theory that explains human behavior in these t

When someone asks, "What's your favorite restaurant?" odds are you're inclined to recommend a place you've eaten at recently—even if it's not really your favorite. It's just top of mind. Why do we weigh recent events so heavily? And how does this tendency impact important decisions, like whom to vote for or how to conduct medical procedures? In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a phenomenon that can cause us to overweight recent events compared to earlier events and make suboptimal decisions. The 1968 presidential election was one of the closest elections in American history. Following an eventful year of civil unrest, war, and high-profile assassinations, eleventh-hour political machinations from Lyndon B. Johnson and Richard Nixon majorly impacted results. "October surprises," or last-minute revelations in the days before a November election, can weigh heavily on voters' minds at the polling booths. John A. Farrell documents the surprising events leading up to 1968 Election Day and P

Vitamin C is a cure for the common cold. Bats are blind. Sugar makes children hyperactive.All of these statements are false. So why are they so pervasive? And why do they feel so true?In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a phenomenon that can cause us to believe inaccurate information more than we should, and also lead us to trust reliable information less than we should.If you’re over a certain age, you might remember friends or family panicking about MSG, or monosodium glutamate, particularly in American Chinese food. But those health concerns stemmed from a single letter to the editor in The New England Journal of Medicine—and a media storm that repeated false information. Jennifer LeMesurier learned about this letter and set off on a journey to trace the origins of the MSG scare and find out why the myths about this ingredient are so persistent. Jennifer LeMesurier is an associate professor of writing and rhetoric at Colgate University and the author of Inscrutable Eating: Asian Ap

Curious what it would be like to walk in someone else's (work) shoes? Join New York Times bestselling author Dan Heath as he explores the world of work, one profession at a time, and interviews people who love what they do. What does a couples therapist think when a friend asks for relationship advice? What happens if a welder fails to wear safety glasses? What can get a stadium beer vendor fired? If you've ever met someone whose work you were curious about, and you had 100 nosy questions but were too polite to ask … well, this is the show for you.Dan Heath was the Season 1 host of Choiceology and is the co-author, along with his brother Chip, of four New York Times bestsellers: Decisive, Switch, Made to Stick, and The Power of Moments.  Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. H

Filling out an overly complicated form or waiting on hold for hours to speak with a customer service rep is a frustrating experience. And sometimes it seems like the process itself is designed to be difficult.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how friction––time, distance, complexity, or anything that gets in the way of your goals—can contribute to what Nobel Prize–winning economist Richard Thaler calls "sludge." A young couple walks into a theme park and they are offered a gift card. The only catch is that they have to watch a 90-minute presentation about timeshares. By the end of the presentation, they are the owners of a timeshare in the timeshare capital of the world, Orlando, Florida. Getting into a timeshare contract was easy, but getting out of it turned out to be much more of a grind.Susan Budowski tells the story of how her clients got out of a sticky situation, and she explains how many companies make it simple and quick to buy a timeshare but difficult and time-consuming t

A train was speeding along the tracks in 19th-century England when a passenger suddenly started smashing windows and waving a pistol in the air. People believed his actions were caused by what was, at the time, a new and unfamiliar form of transportation. Doctors posited the rattling motion and noise of trains could cause passengers to act erratically, creating the short-lived but popular myth of "railway madness."In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how people often overreact to poor quality or incomplete information.A sudden explosion in 1889 ripped apart the USS Maine, the United States' largest warship at the time. The ship sank, killing more than half of the sailors on board. The Maine had been anchored in Cuba, and despite having little proof, the American public immediately blamed the Spanish for the sinking. Newspaper editors published headlines such as "Remember the Maine, to Hell with Spain!" Nearly a hundred years later, an underwater investigation would reveal what likely c

It’s halftime at a basketball game. A kid nervously steps onto center court. If he can score a basket from center court, he’ll take home the prize money. He tells the announcer that he plays on his elementary school team and that he has been practicing for this moment. The crowd holds their breath as the ball sails through the air, hits the backboard … and goes in. The stadium erupts in excitement. Could he be the next Michael Jordan? In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how extraordinary performances can mislead people about future results.Sports Illustrated has featured some of the world’s fastest-rising stars and sporting talents since 1954. Getting on the cover was a career highlight for many and a milestone to greater things. But being featured on the cover also seemed to lead to misfortune. Many athletes suffered dramatic dips in performance after their cover was published. The phenomenon was dubbed the "Sports Illustrated cover jinx." It seemed that no one—from high school baseb

Why do ocean waves move the way they do? How does a toaster work? How might ink flow through a ballpoint pen without the help of gravity? You may know the answer to these questions, but explaining them in detail could reveal an unexpected truth.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at why people think they understand things better than they actually do.The idea started at the dinner table. One of A.J. Jacobs’ kids presented him with a seemingly simple task—thank the people who made his cup of coffee. A.J. took this task to heart and ended up visiting dozens of complex operations around the world, running into surprises at each destination.A.J. Jacobs is a journalist, lecturer, and human guinea pig. He is the author of Thanks A Thousand: A Gratitude Journey, about his journey to better appreciate coffee.         Next, Katy speaks with Steven Sloman about his research on the illusion of explanatory depth—the idea that people think they have more knowledge than they do because it’s easy to mi

What is the difference between buying groceries for the whole week versus grabbing something to eat on the way home each day? Grouping choices together so that you make a bunch of selections all at once can seem daunting, but it can actually help you reach your goals faster.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how taking a bird's eye view on a series of selections can help create better results overall.Most sports teams take years to establish themselves as contenders. But sometimes, a brand-new team is able to use its inception—a one-time opportunity to build something up from scratch—to its advantage. Las Vegas finally got its first professional sports team in 2017 with an NHL team called the Golden Knights. The initial reaction to the team’s roster was muted at best. The players they chose were drafted from teams that did not want them. But a surprising playoff run in the team’s first year hinted at what was yet to come for the newcomers, dubbed the "Golden Misfits."Gary Lawless rec

Scientifically sound, randomized experiments can be expensive and difficult to run. But there’s an alternative: It turns out that certain real-life situations can also generate useful scientific data. The trick is finding them.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how events outside of our control can create opportunities for so-called natural or accidental experiments. The organizers of a heroic airlift transporting thousands of Ethiopian Jews to Israel broke the record for the flight with the most passengers. It was 1994, and the clock was ticking for Israeli intelligence personnel and leaders of the Ethiopian Jewish community as they worked to transport as many people as possible before the civil war closed in on Addis Ababa. This desperate effort, dubbed Operation Solomon, would change the lives of the Ethiopian Jews in surprising and unintended ways. Stephen Spector is a professor of religions and culture and medieval English at Stony Brook University. He's also the author of Opera

There are moments in life where it seems as though everything is riding on one important decision. If only we had a crystal ball to see the future, we could make those decisions with greater confidence. Fortune-telling aside, there are actually methods to improve our predictions—and our decisions.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at what makes some people “superforecasters.” In 2010, the United States government had been looking for Al Qaeda leader and perpetrator of the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, for nearly a decade. Years of intelligence gathering all over the world had come up short. It seemed every new tip was a dead end. But one small group of CIA analysts uncovered a tantalizing clue that led them to a compound in Pakistan. Soon, the president of the United States would be faced with a difficult choice: to approve the top-secret mission or not.We will hear this story from two perspectives. Peter Bergen is a national security commentator and author of the book The Rise and Fal

If you ran a survey at a science fiction convention to find out which movies were most popular with the general public, chances are good that the results would lean heavily towards sci-fi films. This skewing of data is plain to see in this context, but in many others it’s less obvious and potentially more pernicious.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a bias that can distort information that we gather from the world around us.First, W. Joseph Campbell tells the story of the infamous Literary Digest election poll of 1936. The publication had correctly predicted several presidential elections in the 1920s and '30s and was considered the most reputable pollster of its day. They sent millions of surveys to people across the United States in advance of the 1936 election. But this time, their predictions couldn’t have been further from the results.W. Joseph Campbell is a professor of communications at American University and author of Lost in a Gallup: Polling Failure in U.S. Presidential E

On this special bonus episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we highlight Ripple Effect, a new podcast from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Hosted by Dan Loney, Ripple Effect showcases research by Wharton faculty and shares what their insights mean for you.As part of a series on women and work, this episode of Ripple Effect features Choiceology host and Wharton professor Katy Milkman. After years of conducting research on gender bias in the workplace, Katy has reached a singular conclusion: Systemic change is necessary to create long-lasting progress towards diversity, equity, and inclusion. She shares some insights from her most significant studies on diversity training and hiring bias.You can listen to more episodes of Ripple Effect at whr.tn/rippleeffect or wherever you get your podcasts.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the series, visit schwab.com/podcast.If you enjoy the show, please leave a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important Di

We all make decisions involving risk. Decisions like trying out for your school’s chess team, speaking up when you don’t agree with your boss, or going down a double-black-diamond run at the end of a long day of skiing. So how do we determine which risks are worth taking and which ones are too … risky?In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at gender differences around confidence and uncertainty, and how we can all better calibrate our bravado.Surfing waves as tall as apartment buildings takes a lot of strength and skill and preparation. It also involves risk—mistakes can lead to broken bones, concussions, or worse. But as Bianca Valenti explains, those risks can be managed, and there are big rewards in those big waves.Bianca Valenti is a world-champion surfer, speaker, activist, and entrepreneur. Watch her award-winning ride for the Mavericks Awards.Next, Katy speaks with Katherine Coffman about research that explores how gender stereotypes shape beliefs about taking risks.You can read more