The Thomas Jefferson Hour

Guest host David Horton welcomes the Third President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, to the program to talk about what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they designed the system of American elections. Why did the Founders give two senators to each state? How was the controversy between big and little states resolved, and how has it influenced American history? What was the original purpose of the Electoral College, and to what extent should it mirror the popular vote? How did the odious 3/5 clause impact early American elections, including Jefferson’s election in 1800? Why did Jefferson argue for tearing up the Constitution once per generation, perhaps every 19 years? How important was slavery to the debates in Philadelphia in 1787? Were the Founders really opposed to democracy?

Clay discusses his foray into Texas on Phase Three of the great John Steinbeck Travels with Charley 2024 tour. How is Texas different from other states? Can anyone really eat at the Big Texas Steak Ranch and survive? Is the Cadillac Ranch near Amarillo as worthy as Carhenge in Alliance, Nebraska? Why are Texans nicer IN Texas than when they drive their giant white pickups into other states? The program includes Clay’s interlude in Birmingham, Alabama, where he toured the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, including an encounter with the actual steel bars of the jail where Martin Luther King wrote “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.” Plus, Clay’s guide to the 2024 Presidential Election.

Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay about the third phase of his 2024 Steinbeck "Travels with Charley" tour. Russ was in North Carolina, Clay, at an RV park in eastern New Mexico on the legendary Route 66. They discussed Steinbeck's purpose for his 1960 truck camper Odyssey. Did he achieve his goal? Why wasn't Steinbeck interested in America's National Parks, many of which he could easily have visited? What was Steinbeck's state of mind as he set out to search for America? How important is his aristocratic French poodle, Charley, to the book's success? Clay also covers his recent cultural tour of Literary England and a visit to Arches and Canyonlands National Parks in Utah in search of the legacy of Edward Abbey, the anarchist and wilderness lover who wrote Desert Solitaire in 1968. And Clay's so-far unsuccessful search for America's best gumbo.

Clay Jenkinson is joined by sports historian Kurt Kemper of Dakota State University and sports fan David Nicandri of Washington State. Our subject: the Caitlin Clark phenomenon. Clark of the University of Iowa now holds the NCAA collegiate basketball record for most career points in either the men’s or women’s league. What is next for her? How does her sudden national celebrity impact the game? How many thousands of girls are out on the driveway practicing their dribble and their jump shots thanks to her example? What should we make of the game's marketing team pitting Clark, who is white, against Angel Reese, an African American? 

Clay speaks with Richard Rhodes, eminent author of numerous books, including The Making of the Atomic Bomb. The subject: industrial agriculture and the death of rural America. Other countries pass legislation protecting small family farms, but the U.S. government throws its weight behind agribusiness and industrial gigantism. Rhodes believes we need to alter our food production and consumption paradigm for the sake of our health, the planet, and our relationship with the earth and other species. Was Jefferson’s utopian vision of a nation of sturdy and independent family farmers the right one? Was it ever viable? Can we regenerate rural America in the second half of the 21st century?

Clay interviews author and frequent guest Lindsay Chervinsky about her splendid new book on the John Adams administration: Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic. In the second of two conversations about the book, Clay asks Lindsay to justify some of her unscrupulous attacks on the life and character of Thomas Jefferson. More to the point, why did John Adams fail to be re-elected for a second term in the year 1800? How much effect did the Constitution’s 3/5 clause have on the outcome? What were Adams’ greatest contributions to American political life? Why did George Washington betray his deepest principles during the Quasi War with France in 1798? Were the Alien and Sedition Laws of 1798 the reason the Jeffersonians won in 1800 or is it more complicated than that?

Clay talks with eminent historian Joseph Ellis, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of over a dozen books. Today’s question? Were we ever a republic, and are we now a republic? What did the Founding Fathers mean when they created the American republic? How is a republic different from a democracy? Was Jefferson’s small-r republican idealism realistic? Or was he, as John Adams reckoned, a beautiful but naïve dreamer? When did we cease to be a republic, or are we, in some limited sense, still a republic in 2024? How does the election of 2024 matter from this perspective?

Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay about Phase II of his 2024 Travels with Charley tour. What has Clay learned from retracing Steinbeck's famous 1960 cross-country journey? This time from Bismarck to Seattle, then Monterey, Salinas, and Route 66. Clay describes a few mishaps that have occurred. Plus, a visit to the Sylvia Beach literary hotel in Oregon, the annual Lewis and Clark Cultural Tour, the magnificence of the American continent, and people's reluctance to discuss our paralytic political situation. Finally, the lingering question: uncovering the best gumbo in America? 

Clay Jenkinson’s interview with adventurer Alan Mallory about his family’s ascent of Mount Everest. That’s 29,032 feet, a third of it in the Death Zone, where your body actually starts to die from lack of oxygen and other factors. Mallory walks us through the process—getting to Nepal, the cost, the outfitters, the journey to base camp, where you stay to adjust to the altitude, and then the slow, steady, and exhausting climb through four camps before attempting the summit. On the basis of his book, The Family that Conquered Everest, Mallory has a vibrant career as a motivational speaker. At the end he shares his adventures are ahead.

Clay interviews regular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky about her new book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic. It’s a wonderfully readable study of the one-term presidency of John Adams. Lindsay sheds new light on some of the most interesting moments of the Adams presidency and examines the first peaceful transfer of power in American political history and the second when Thomas Jefferson displaced Adams in the election of 1800. The book provides fascinating insights into the people and events that set the future trajectory of the great American experiment.

Clay Jenkinson converses with historian Larry Skogen about his new book, To Educate American Indians. Skogen’s book examines US policy of assimilating Native Americans into European-derived white America, including the nightmare of the Indian Boarding Schools, personified by Carlisle Indian School’s superintendent Richard Pratt’s racist mission statement: “Kill the Indian, Save the Man.” One of the fascinations of this subject is that so many of the white people engaged in coercive assimilation were, at least in their own minds, “philanthropists,” who believed they were doing the right thing. Embedded in the assimilation movement of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century was what is called “scientific racism,” the view that Anglo Saxon white people were the acme of world civilization and all others were lower on the scale of civilization, accomplishment, and even capacity. It’s an important and at times chilling subject, and Larry Skogen is one of the nation’s premier historians of these policies.

Clay interviews former NPR CEO Ken Stern, author of a provocative 2018 book, Republican Like Me: How I Left the Liberal Bubble and Learned to Love the Right. Weary of living in a liberal cosmos that found the other side “deplorable,” Ken traveled America to experience rituals that many associate with the political Right. He hunted a pig in Texas, visited evangelical churches, went to a NASCAR race, and spent time with the philosopher of Trumpism, Steve Bannon. Clay asks why Ken did it, what he learned, and how his views of America changed. 

Clay talks with Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky about her just-published book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic. Lindsay explores how, in the nation's early days, John Adams and others pioneered a framework for the American presidency that we now take for granted. One example: The U.S. Constitution was largely silent about the peaceful transfer of power. Chervinsky notes the country was filled with anxiety to see George Washington retire and observe the transfer of power, a new and revolutionary feature of political life.   

Historian Lindsay Chervinsky talks with Clay about the enemies of the second president of the United States, John Adams. Somewhat tongue in cheek, Lindsay believes that Jefferson was one of those enemies because he was a disloyal vice president to Adams. Others included Alexander Hamilton, who considered himself the shadow president. Hamilton also wrote that notorious pamphlet in 1800, asserting that he regarded Adams as unfit for re-election. Lindsay also says Abigail Adams was one of the greatest first ladies in American history and a co-president in limited respects.

Skidmore College political scientist Beau Breslin joins Clay to discuss how America might prepare for its 250th birthday on July 4, 2026. Topics include the collapse of civility and mutual respect and the breakdown of respect for American institutions, from the Supreme Court and the FBI to the media and the church. They discuss the possibility of a new constitutional convention as a way of commemorating America’s 250th anniversary. They also examine what Clay is discovering about the country’s mood as he follows John Steinbeck’s 1960 Travels with Charley journey.

Eminent historian Joseph Ellis returns to Listening to America to assess the country’s current political climate. Ellis, now in retirement in the mountains of Vermont, is the author of more than a dozen books, including biographical treatments of Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, and others. He believes that the election of November 2024 is the second most important election of American history and the single most important election of his lifetime. He urges all Americans to step back and think hard about where we are and where we may be heading. Ellis and Jenkinson turn to the mission statement of the Founding Fathers, Jefferson’s famous 35 words beginning with We hold these truths to be self-evident, and the Constitution’s preamble which commits America to the perpetual struggle to create a more perfect union. They also discuss the vision, character, and achievement of Thomas Jefferson and whether he is truly the apostle of armed resistance in American life.

Clay welcomes regular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky for a conversation about the First Amendment, ratified with nine others on December 15, 1792. The First Amendment lists four protected American rights:  1) Freedom of Religion, 2) Freedom of Speech and the Press, 3) Freedom of Assembly, 4) Freedom to Petition the government for redress of grievances. James Madison drafted the Bill of Rights to appease the demands of the American people, who wanted a charter of human rights at the center of the new Constitution. Madison's 45 words are among the most important in human history. What do we mean by the "establishment of religion"? Why did the Founding Fathers feel so strongly about First Amendment rights? Are there limits to freedom of expression, and who gets to decide? How well is the First Amendment holding up in the courts today, and what can we expect in the next few years?

Dr. Cassandra Newby-Alexander of Norfolk State University in Virginia joins Clay Jenkinson to discuss unresolved race issues in the United States. Dr. Newby-Alexander is the author of an important book, Virginia Waterways and the Underground Railroad. During the 18th and 19th centuries more than 100,000 enslaved people found their way to freedom in Canada via the Underground Railroad, many of them taking advantage of the myriad of inland waterways in the eastern half of the US. The Underground Railroad was not a single path from southern states to Canada, where slavery was illegal. It was a complex and exceedingly dangerous network of land routes, water passages, safe houses, secret insignia, always just a step or two ahead of the slave catchers and kidnappers who were complicit in the perpetuation of slavery in America.

Richard Rhodes, noted historian and author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Making of the Atomic Bomb, returns to Listening to America for another discussion reflecting on America as it approaches its 250th birthday. In this poignant conversation, Mr. Rhodes and Clay discuss gun violence in America. Are humans inherently violent? What is the cause of the dramatic rise in mass shootings in the United States? Assuming that the Second Amendment is unshakable, are there things we can do to prevent or bring down the rate of gun violence in American life? Rhodes’ conclusions are simple and stark. We are not different from other developed countries except in one crucial way.

Clay interviews the eminent historian Richard Slotkin about America as it approaches its 250th birthday. Richard Slotkin is an emeritus professor of history at Wesleyan University in Connecticut. He is the author of many books, including two groundbreaking studies of violence on the American frontier. His latest book, A Great Disorder: National Myth and the Battle for America, attempts to place the current crisis in the basic narratives of American history: the myth of the Founders, frontier myths, the myths surrounding the Civil War and World War II; and the myth of American exceptionalism. As we approach our 250th birthday, can America find a way to craft a new consensus narrative of who we are and where we are headed? Or are we doomed to disintegrate into two or more Americas that see the other side as evil or un-American?